Mormon Missionary Couple
Last month I ran into an older LDS missionary couple at the post office. I had a great 10 minute discussion with them. I walked past them and told them that I loved them, but they were never going to be gods of their own worlds some day and that Joseph Smith was lying to them. The guy bit, and started giving me all the standard LDS arguments.
Rom. 8: we are joint heirs with Christ doesn't state that we become gods even though we rule with Christ and He never inherited godhood.
"'Elohim' should be translated gods." No Hebrew scholar translates it that in Genesis 1, since the context is that it's governed by a 3rd person singular verb (i.e., He created). That's why every translation says "God" there. That's also what Isa. 44:24 says--God or Jehovah did it alone.
John 20:17: Just because the Father was a God to Jesus and Jesus calls His Father His God doesn't entail polytheism, particularly because Trinitarianism is true. Since the latter is true, then it's no problem for one of the persons of God to refer to the other as His God. The Father even did that to His Son in Heb. 1 when He said to Him, "Thy throne oh God is forever." Still waiting to see where the Bible ever says more than 1 true God.
John 17: yes, we can be one with God even though we're separate from God, but that doesn't entail that the members of the Godhead are simply one in purpose. The Bible teaches they all are eternally the only God there is.
John 10: who were the other gods Jesus was referring to? Jesus was quoting Ps. 82, and there He defines for you that these were false gods, who were judging unjustly and would die like men. Jesus wasn't one of those gods, and the very miracles He did should have demonstrated that He really was God the Son in human flesh.
LDS missionary said, "Sure Jesus created everything." However, I said, "C'mon, you don't believe He created your spirit, the planet He was born on as a spirit-child, etc."
LDS missionary asked, "Who was Jesus praying to?" I responded, "His Father, so yes, they're different, but that doesn't prove they're separate gods especially if Trinitarianism is true."
I told this couple they make lousy gods. God has always been God (Ps. 90:2) contrary to what Smith taught.
The LDS couple started walking away after I ran through the Isaiah passages, particularly 44:24 and contrasted that with the temple ceremony where Jehovah is having help with Michael in laying out the heavens and the earth upon the instructions of Elohim, as well as what Abraham 4-5 says with all the Gods helping each other out. LDS missionary said, "Well that's your interpretation." I said, "Sure they're many gods mentioned in scripture, but they're all false gods. Show me where it says anywhere there's more than 1 true God or true Gods." He couldn't do it. All he had were possibilities that were all contradicted with the rest of scripture.
I told him that he could only have 1 master. He said, "You obviously didn't see our name on our badge: Masters." Ha! So as we said so long, I told them to please check out my site some time: JosephLied.com.
Did some outreach at Temple Square, but wasn’t well received at all by LDS. They just did not want to interact with me and some were quite upset about me being there.
However, the best part about it was running into a non-LDS guy named Douglas from Honduras who is starting a program at the University of Utah. He listen to me present the gospel, and when I asked if he was ready to commit his life to Christ, Douglas said that he needed more time to think about such an important decision. He took my literature and DVD, and promised to think more about it.
The Shack Film Review
The Shack film came out last month, which is based on quite a controversial book. I reviewed the film on our blog.
We had Angie Gerdes, a friend from church, share her story last month. You may see the video here and the pictures here.
Questioning Mormonism and Christianity?
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Rob, I think that what you are saying is exactly what lds doctrine teaches. Ether 3 succinctly describes the Mormon view on who Jesus was prior to being born of Mary. He was a God prior to his mortal life. Furthermore regarding mormons view on deification, it is no more clearly explained then in the book of revelations chapter 3. For example verse 21 states that, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
I'm a Mormon and at least how I understand the doctrine suggests that "deification " or however you want to call it (it is generally referred to as eternal life in Mormon scripture) is a very dependent on God state, kind of like how Lewis described it. No where in our doctrine is it suggested that we will ever be independent of God, in fact quite the opposite. I feel like a lot of people hear a very cartoonish view of Mormon doctrine, but at its heart it is actually profoundly Christian.
[I replied:] It's not the same thing, because LDS doctrine clearly teaches that 1) Jesus as well as all other Gods had to become Gods. Jesus was unique, as well as the the Holy Spirit, in that they did it prior to coming to Earth. But the Bible teaches Jesus was always God (Jn. 1:1-3 and 14) and as such His overcoming mentioned in Rev. 3 did not make Him a God and as such it won't make us one either. It will make us rule with Him though. So for LDS, we can't overcome "even as" He overcame to become Gods, since a) His overcoming was prior to this life to become a God or b) if the overcoming mentioned in Rev. 3 is in reference to this life, then it has nothing to do with becoming a God, since He already was a God prior to coming to this life. 2) Christians hold to only 1 true God, who is the Creator of literally everything outside Himself. Thus, He alone is truly independent. However Mormonism clearly teaches that we are all independent as Intelligences. The Mormon God was an architect of pre-existing and eternal things like matter and intelligence (D&C 93:29-35; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:18-28), and we, if we're worthy enough or *depend* on Him enough, will become Gods just like He is for other worlds we'll create. This is why all of traditional Christianity finds Mormonism blasphemous.
I have talked to many Mormons who just refuse to listen to the truth. If someone had a product to sell me, I would want to know everything before buying it. However, if the product has paralogism, then it will raise some concerns. I love this quote from South Park: STAN: Wait. Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?
So glad that your mom was healed! The Lord is a God of miracles and I am so thankful that He saved your mom from cancer. I hope you are well.
Great story about your mom, that's amazing, and wild!
That was great news about your mom! There are a lot of false positives when it comes to cancer diagnoses, but the Nigerian story is pretty cool. Awesome news!
There's a big need for a Mormon transition class. We were wondering if you could recommend a book/structure to us to use? Our church is not fully equipped for the harvest out here and we'd love to be the safe place for these poor people to find on their way out.
[I replied:] http://www.ldstransitions.com/ This is a program in many churches here in Utah. We have it at our church: K2.
I also have a transition program now on our www.MormonInfo.org in the form of 6 emails (1 per week). We also runwww.MeetTheExMormons.org out of our home in West Jordan every 2nd Saturday of the month
What is the apron for in Mormon funerals , Masons wear the same aprons to their meetings......what does an apron do for people?
[I replied:] http://lifeafter.org/mormon-temple-clothing-and-other-rituals/
The apron is representative of the fig leaf apron Adam and Eve wore in the Garden. LDS are instructed by Lucifer to wear them, and they wear them throughout the temple ceremony, and then are buried in them. LDS just go along with the program.
Hello, I'd like to change religion. Someone told me, you've got a book written by Jesus?!
[I replied:] Well I've got the Bible, which is God's word. I invite you to read through the New Testament and then the Old Testament with the eyes of a child and let God speak to you from there without any preconceived notions.
You may also like to take my 6 email course. You'll get one a week to examine the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. You can sign up from the home page of www.MormonInfo.org.
I don’t believe this mission is very Christian, loving others no matter who they worship or what they believe is Christian, taking offense to it is human.
Shalom Rob, I have a quick question about Mormonism. Do they believe that Jesus achieved godhood?
[I replied:] Yes, both prior to coming to earth as well as after His resurrection. Depends on Mormon though when [exactly], but all believe He was the first born child of heavenly parents and that means He’s not God by nature. In fact, there is no God by nature, since all are humans by nature and have to be exalted.