3 Sets of LDS Missionaries
At the beginning of last month, I met with the missionaries Hansen (from Mesa, AZ) and Carman (from Seattle, WA). They said they were busy and could only meet for 1/2 hour. We stretched it out to 50 minutes. Rusty Dunbar and Dave Flores were there. Both of them shared their testimonies of being former LDS missionaries themselves and coming to realize who Jesus really is. You may look up both their more extended testimonies on MeetTheExMormons.org.
Near the end, my dad shared with them about the Lord being our righteousness as Jer. 23:6 says and us being made into Christ's righteousness in 2 Cor. 5:21. Of course they agreed with that, but my dad said we need more time to define the grace of God. Dad offered to have them over for lunch sometime, but told them they'd need to come for at least 2 hours and were welcome to bring someone else who extensively knows their history and doctrine. They were going to check if they could do that.
We had a nice cordial time even though there wasn't much dialogue. We were hoping for that next time... if that would even happen.
So evidently we have spies on my private message board who relayed this report onto those missionaries and they weren't happy about it. My dad said they thought that I got paid for this post, which is not true. Anyway, their mission president said they weren't going to continue meeting. When they would see my dad they would graciously wave to my dad.
Later on the very day I talked to the missionaries above, I talked to a couple sister missionaries coming home from Walmart for about 10 minutes. Scott is from Las Cruses, NM and Larson is from Portland, OR. I started out by showing them the picture of me with the other LDS missionaries I talked with above. Both these girls are lifelong Mormons, but wow, were they confused!
I asked if they've read the Bible and if they see any contradictions with what they as LDS hold. They didn't see any. They told me the "plain and precious truths" weren't removed from the Bible, since the Book of Mormon is a supplement to it!
We talked about grace that works and having salvation to work vs. having salvation by works. They both claimed they agreed with that. Larson told me that everyone has eternal life, but not everyone has exaltation. (Nevermind Jn. 3:16--not everyone has eternal life.) Actually, exaltation and eternal life are the same thing in LDS theology. The difference is with general salvation and eternal life. I told them Christ is my worthiness, so I am not worried about my own worthiness. Christ works through me, so I don't have to worry about doing all the items on the temple recommend before I am right with God, and because of what He's done, I know where I'm going when I die. I'll be with God. They have no such assurance.
We talked about whether Christ created everything or not. They said yes, but then had to qualify that when I started asking about specifics. "Did He create their spirits or was He simply their elder brother in a pre-earth life?" "Did He create Lucifer?" Larson said, "No, He didn't." I quoted Jn. 1:1-3 and Col. 1:13-8 to her. I said, "Your Heavenly Father didn't even create everything since He had to become a God." They agreed that He had to become a God, but then denied that the Father had a Father. I said, "Joseph Smith certainly taught that." Scott said, "That's just the errors of men." Can you believe that? I told her Smith shouldn't be held as a prophet of God. He was a false prophet, since He failed in simply teaching a false god according to Deut. 13:1-5.
I was also able to quote Isa. 43:10 and Ps. 90:2 to them. God did it all, He's always been God, and He's the only God there is.
Scott asked what religion I was. I told her I was a Born-again Christian. Then she asked if I was a pastor. I told her, "No, I'm a missionary."
Of course they had to go to their next appointment, so Scott beared her testimony. I asked her how she knew that was the Holy Ghost who told her that, since the Holy Ghost is telling me that Mormonism is false, Smith was a false prophet, and she's being led to hell and someone has to tell her that. Again, they had to go.
So here are a couple more to pray for!
A few days later, I forgot it was P-day (Preparation day for LDS missionaries is Mondays) when the wife sent me to Walmart. Just talked to 3 of them: Taylor, Bell, and Peterson. Man, these kids keep getting younger! Asked how long they've been on their missions, where they're from, then I asked them how they knew it was true. Of course they went into feelings and miracle experiences. I asked if they acknowledge that miracles happen in other religions, and they did, so again I asked why they would think theirs is true and others false. I brought up the 1st Vision where Jesus condemned all other churches and their creeds, the Book of Mormon [BM] claiming only 2 churches--Lamb's and devil's, and D&C 1:30 mentioning they're the only true Church. So again, I asked why they were so confident theirs is true and everyone else false.
I asked if they read the Bible. They all said yes, but one admitted not all the way through. So I told them the Bible never teaches that we are to simply rest on our feelings to determine truth. Peterson brought up James 1:5. I told them, again, there's nothing there that says that we are simply to determine truth by our feelings. I quoted to them Jer. 17:9 and Prov. 14:12. Taylor asked if I read the BM, the Doctrine & Covenants [D&C], and the Pearl of Great Price [PGP] (other LDS scriptures), and even prayed about all of them and God told me that they contradict what God has already given in the Bible. Taylor asked what religion I was, so I told them I was a born-again Christian.
I then went into the nature of God and how Smith failed the very first test of a prophet in Deut. 13:1-5 when he taught a false god. I said, "He taught that God had to become a God like we all have to, and in the PGP Book of Abraham Smith taught there were other Gods who created the heavens and the earth, but that is a lie, since God said all other gods are false" [Ps. 96:4-5]. I quoted to them Isa. 43:10, 44:8 and 24. I also quoted Gal. 1:6-9 to them. Taylor said he needed to research Galatians more on that, but asked if I still believe God speaks today. I told them, "Of course I do, but God's not going to contradict Himself from what He's already revealed in the Bible. If we want to know what to believe, everything must be tested by what it says. Jesus said that God's word was truth [Jn. 17:17] and scripture cannot be broken" [Jn. 10:35].
I brought my daughters with me, but they were hanging out by the entrance while I was near the check-out. They called me twice to go and one also came up to me to tell me, and we had my step-daughter and her family who just came to visit us for a couple days. Anyway, I told these LDS how much I loved them, how my in-laws are LDS, and my wife used to be. Then I encouraged them to read my JosephLied.com sometime and contact me and let me know what they think of it.
I prayed for them with my girls, and ask you to pray for them as well.
Several days later, I took the dog on a walk and guess who I ran into. Yep, the sister missionaries again. I asked how they were doing, but they didn't respond. They kept walking. I could tell they didn't want to talk with me.
I asked them if they knew that according their own Church, Smith had 30 to 40 wives and about a dozen were currently married to living husbands. One simply said, "Yes, we know." So I asked, "You guys alright with a prophet like that?" "Yes, we are," they said as they kept walking. So I asked how could he be a church leader in the New Testament Church when the New Testament says he's to be the husband of only one wife, not many [1 Tim. 3:2 and Tit. 1:6]. She simply said, "You should read their article on polygamy on their Gospel Info Bases. It will be quite helpful for you." I told them about the Gospel Topics Essay, "Polygamy in Kirtland and Nauvoo," and that I've obviously read that, but they didn't care.
We got to the corner, I said goodbye and take care, but they didn't respond. Just kept walking.
This walking the dog ministry certainly is proving to be more beneficial than just to my dog. Several days later, I ran into those same LDS missionaries again in the neighborhood, but this time they had some lady who was in her 40s. I greeted them, then asked them if they were aware that Smith as a 38-year-old man married 14, 15, and 16-year-old girls. The one girl asked me if I read the article the LDS Church put out about it. I told her I have, but it doesn't address the problem, viz., that Smith was a pervert and couldn't be a prophet of God.
That's when they introduced me to my neighbor, who asked me how my spirit feels. She didn't want to address Smith at all. Totally avoided the subject! I told her my spirit is at peace with God and that's why I don't need the LDS Church and all its temple underwear, tithing, Word of Wisdom (their health code), and all their other temple stuff. Then she asked me if I've read the Bible. I told her every day. She went into her favorite Bible passage: "faith without works is dead." She said how this is what these sister missionaries are living out each day. I told them if they are following after a false prophet, they are not doing the works of God, but are leading people away from God. I told this lady what I told these girls last time we talked, viz., that Smith according their Church married 30 to 40 wives and about a dozen were currently married to living husbands making him a serial adulterer.
Well of course they had to go, so they just started walking away, and as the lady was singing some righteousness song, I shouted out to them that they are sticking their heads in the sand and don't care about the truth of God.
We were blessed to have Brad Wegelin share his story with us last month. Please go to the above URL to watch it and see the pictures.
We were able to share with the high school group at Kumulani Chapel, Maui. This is the extension of Greg Laurie’s Harvest Christian Fellowship. Tara shared her testimony and I shared about our ministry and how different Mormonism is from Christianity. One of the associate leaders prayed over us afterwards and thanked the Lord for the clearest presentation on Mormonism vs. Christianity that she had ever heard… and that includes her apologetics/cults class at Bible college! That was really encouraging!
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Be strong and courageous (Joshua 1:6)!
President, Courageous Christians United
P.O. Box 1374
West Jordan, UT 84088
Your interactions with them are very interesting to read about!!
Believe me, you've planted seed that will sprout later. Perhaps years from now, but you planted them.
They probably have their entire families expecting them to serve an honorable mission. Even if they were secretly atheists who are doing this solely for their family, they won't tell you, and probably not even their companions.
They likely went and talked to their supervisors or maybe even the mission president after the last time you spoke with them and were warned to keep away from you as you were obviously "anti". Well in their eyes anyway.
They are told we are attacking them when we ask difficult questions. One even said my words mean violence towards them. 😳🤦🏻♀️🤪
Some people don't like to be confused with the facts. Truth doesn't mean anything to them.
Such blindness… may God give them ears to hear and eyes to see 🙏🏼
How sad trying to test teenagers with cunning questions. The missionaries are not prepare to answer questions that have nothing to do with preaching jesuschrist and his atonement but you had plenty of time to prepare to bash them. I feel pity for people like you that try to make prey of the young and immature. I would invite you to talk with someone more experience more season in the doubts and disbeliefs of people like you and I promise you you won’t have a false sense of pride for teasing those that are not going through the world to satisfied your morbid and cunning devilish intend to make them fall. Feel free to talk to anyone with a good testimony and with the information to debate you I challenge you on that
That’s just fantastic! You guys were a light in their darkness!
You guys are hard core. I don't know that I could do this.
[I replied:] as my dad used to say when I was a kid... "practice makes perfect." You start and then trust the Lord to make you better and better little by little. You need to understand that I've been dialoguing with Mormons since I was a little kid. About 50 years now.
God bless you all and your ministry!