MeetTheExMormons.org
The Jessops came to share their story coming out of the Allred Mormon polygamous group and coming to Christ. The pictures are posted on our site, but the Jessops were uncomfortable about the video being posted, so I ended up removing it.
LDS missionaries
I talked to 3 LDS girl missionaries passing by my house across the street for probably a good half-hour. Nice conversation. They had faith and were happy in loving God. I explained how they could be happy with a drug or in some other religion that believes in God. Yet that doesn't make it true.
We talked about the Book of Mormon, and how it doesn't have any artifacts that are in the Church museum in downtown SLC. One gal from Guatemala said that there is evidence from where she is from. I told her that if there was, then some of those artifacts would be in the museum. I also told her that LDS scholars fight among themselves as to where the events of the BM took place--North, Central, or South America. They don't know. It's all speculation. That is quite different from the wealth of evidence we have for the Bible.
I talked about the racism in the BM, but that was simply dismissed as symbolism.
We also talked about the JST and how there is zero evidence for the changes Smith made to the Bible and all the evidence is against what he changed. That was brought up since one claimed the Bible has changed, so it can't be relied on. Smith lied when he changed the Bible and was proven to be a liar as Prov. 30:6 said.
We talked about the nature of Jesus being God and how He is God the Son by nature and how that is completely different from us being children of God who were created humans and adoption into His family through faith. Jesus couldn't be our elder brother in a pre-earth life, since the Bible refers to Him as our creator (Jn. 1:1-3, 14 and Col. 1:13-8).
Well they had faith, but I said, "I do too, but at least I have evidence for my faith. If there was none and all the evidence contradicted my faith, then we would be going against Jesus who claimed to be the truth in John 14:6. Having a happy feeling without truth can lead to death. Proverbs 14:12 says that there's a way that seems right, but the end leads to death. That's why it's important to go by what God has already revealed in the Bible and not trust Smith who was proven to be a false prophet."
Much more was said, but that's the gist. Of course they were late for an appointment and had to go. They seemed surprised when I asked them if I could pray for them. I prayed to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that He would reveal Himself to them and give them life. They said they were Spanish speaking missionaries, but would send other missionaries who would be able to help me more. I'm not holding my breath. Anyway, now you can pray for them.
Dissertation update
I am attempting to quickly finish the concluding chapter this month. Please pray that this will be done soon.
Family update
It's been quite stressful time for our family. Dad had two stents put in the arteries of his heart. Strangely, tests do not show he had a heart attack. Other than his blockages, his heart is good. Immediately afterwards when the pain came back, he went back to the ER and found out he has shingles! He's been suffering with it for a month now.
Zoe had a flu which quickly turned into pneumonia. She missed just over two weeks of school. She's back, but her lung has been damaged and it doesn't help that inversion season is here now. That is when the hot air traps the cooler air in the bottom of the valley, and the air quality continues to worsen until a storm comes in to clean it out, which could be weeks at a time. This cycle lasts until around Valentine's Day. Zoe can't be out for recess when it gets this bad.
Our freezer's fan needed repair. We just had another costly repair done to it last summer.
This is where fire broke out.Oh, and our house caught on fire. Thank God Zoe and I were home otherwise our pets would have died and the home would have completely burned down. Tara used the wrong cord to charge her electric mop. That made it explode as it was against the hallway door which held her hairdresser's dress she was borrowing. That caught on fire. I had to throw it on the ground and stomp it out with just my sock on. By the way, the hairdresser's home completely burned down several years ago.
We should have never read through Job the other month! ;)
Year-end giving
Please keep Courageous Christians United in mind with your year-end giving. Please visit our “Invest” page for the various ways you may give to this ministry.
Thanks much and Merry Christmas!
Rob Sivulka
Courageous Christians United
P.O. Box 1374
West Jordan, UT 84088
(801) 792-6373
MormonInfo.org
MeetTheExMormons.org
JWinfo.org
MuhammadLied.Info
AbortionIsMurder.Info
Mailbag
A Facebook post from last month
It wasn’t coincidence. The laws of physics and biological processes are what you are a product of. Still makes more sense given the massive amount of time that this Earth has existed than creation 6000 years ago does.
Christian’s also thought the Earth was the center of the solar system for a thousand years. Accepting that it wasn’t didn’t change their faith, just their view of where they fit in the Universe. Evolutionary biology is the same. Accepting that doesn’t require you to not believe in God.
[I replied:] why the laws? Why something rather than nothing? It's still a coincidence that those laws work they way they do to bring about such specification. And why assume I hold to 6000 year creation? Most Christians don't think that.
[He replied:] I would agree with you on that. I believe that “something” created or controls those laws. Are you saying that Christians can believe that God created us using evolutionary biology? I see that as the only option for giving God credit for creating life on this planet.
You have to remember I came from Mormonism. They 100% believe in a 6000 year old Earth. At least the ones who know the doctrine that was taught and the scriptures in the D&C. Some Christians believe in a new Earth don’t they? I honestly don’t know how many would believe in a new Earth. I went to an Evangelical church in Utah that believed in a new Earth.
[I replied:] in other words, you still need a law giver for laws or it's just coincidence that non-intelligent matter bumps into other non-intelligent matter to bring out certain determinative outcomes.
[He replied:] Yes I would agree with that. I’m in a position in my life and beliefs that I’m not sure it is a law giver or force we don’t understand that creates what we call laws of physics. It’s entirely possible that just gravity could make it all happen. We really don’t even understand gravity or gravitational waves.
I will agree with you that it is highly unlikely that we are here by chance. Even with the “laws” governing evolutionary processes it is highly unlikely but it is possible given the vast amount of time the Earth has existed. Not to mention the fact that a large part of the evolutionary process could have happened before the Earth formed in other parts of the Universe. Possibly even other galaxies which gives you an infinite amount of time.
[I replied:] yes, there are many theistic evolutionists and many think that evolution only makes sense with God. Naturalistic evolution is more of a miracle than theistic evolution. There are problems with macro-evolution though, and even many secularists realize there's just not enough time to bring about the incredible specificity of even non-life going to life. See secular agnostic Michael Denton's "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis." So perhaps a better explanation is that God used it in a much shorter time frame. The earliest Cambrian explosion shows the basic life forms were already present. But this turns on a scientific debate between old earth and young earth creationists, which I really don't care much about. There are good arguments on both sides. To get you going, did you see Joe Rogan's interview with Stephen Meyer?
[He replied:] No I didn’t see that interview. I would 100% be a theistic evolutionist. I’ve said that is where my mind goes for decades on the subject. So far though I have not found churches that embrace or promote that view. Definitely solves an area of concern in my mind about the subject as far as how it works with Christianity.
[I replied:] You would probably enjoy Hugh Ross's "Creator and the Cosmos." See his Reasons to Believe. Most evangelical pastors don't have a science background. Doesn't mean that you can't find other benefits in what they have to offer. You may also enjoy William Lane Craig's latest--"In Quest of the Historical Adam" and the critique of it by Thomas Howe: https://www.christianbook.com/.../9781666797565/pd/797566.
There is no such thing as an actual infinite amount of time. 2 scientific reasons: 1) the best explanation of the Big Bang, and 2) 2nd law of thermodynamics, which says that if the universe is winding down, then it implies a point of winding up. The cold death to the universe would have already happened if the universe was actually infinite. I mean, how much more time do you need than an actual infinite amount?
The primary reason I don't believe in an actual infinite amount of past time is philosophical. If it is impossible to traverse actual infinity in the future, it would also be impossible to do it in the past. However, how did we traverse actual infinity from an infinite past to get to the present moment? You need an absolute shoving off point to get literally anywhere. If actually infinite, it would be attempting to jump out of a bottomless pit.
So since I have good reasons to believe in an absolute beginning, then the only explanation for the 1st event is a Person. 2 reasons: 1) only persons can act spontaneously or freely and not determined by preceding events. Determination causation requires preceding events, but that's exactly what you don't have with the first moment of time. You don't have time before time. 2) Only a mind can explain the incredible order and specificity to nature, including all the fundamental constants of life.
So the Mind that started the Big Bang, must be outside of space and matter and time, and this looks a lot like the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and definitely not the God of Mormonism.
[S]o I'm working with the standard 14 billion years or so for the BB. In that time frame, there's just not enough time, especially with natural processes blindly bumping into each other, working it out as it goes along.
[He replied:] What if you start with single cell life at around 12B? Some evidence suggests life may have arrived on Earth from comets and not evolved to single cell life here.
[I replied:] pure hypothesis. Nonetheless, you don't have an actual infinite amount of time. That's my main concern. I'm not a scientist, so I'll let scientists fight about that stuff. The OP still stands as good reason to dismiss atheism and accept some form of theism.
btw, this is all why Mormonism doesn't really fit with some form of theism. It's some form of naturalism.
[He replied:] I would agree. Thanks for the recommended books and civil discussion with one of those skeptical Mormons that your witnessing helped “see” a little better.
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