Shawn McCraney Revisited
Shawn on his HOTM showOn January 3, 2019 I went after Shawn McCraney on David Bartosiewicz Facebook page. Here's the dialogue I had with him and others on January 4-5, 2019:
Rob Sivulka: BTW, if I can't say that Shawn has a false god, then I shouldn't be able to say LDS or JW's have a false god. If the latter do and we all here agree with that, then there shouldn't be any difference with stating the same for Shawn when he attacks traditional Christianity's Triune God. Whether full preterism or whether Satan has influence anymore is true or not doesn't matter for one's salvation. There's no verse stating such. Shawn's false god does matter.
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka brother, until you understand EVERYTHING about God, you too, in some sense or another, worship a false God. Be kind, Rob. My God is true.
Rob Sivulka: Shawn McCraney That's crazy logic. If that were the case, then everyone would be considered an idolater, and Paul says that unrepentant idolaters don't inherit the kingdom of God and such were some of you (1 Cor. 6:9-11). Heck, I don't understand EVERYTHING about my wife either, but that doesn't entail that I have a false Tara Sivulka that I'm in a relationship with.
Do you still hold the Jehovah's Witness view that the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force?
If your God is true, then traditional Christianity's Triune God is false. They both can't be true, since you already stated quite clearly that my God is "garbage."
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka i never said your God is garbage....ever. the trinity is garbage because its incomplete.
not impersonal. Its His spirit. Its very personal. To Him.
Rob Sivulka: Shawn McCraney The Traditional Christian God is the Triune God. That's what we call the Trinity. Every system of theology is incomplete. We are finite. That doesn't mean that any proposition we hold is "garbage."
So the Holy Spirit is a person that has a center of consciousness and will in an eternal relation to the Father and the Son, who are also 2 different or distinct centers of consciousness and wills?
BTW, my arm is personal to me, but obviously it's not a person.
According to Dr. Rob Bowman, you called the HS an "It". You haven't read his critique on your view of the HS? Here's Fred W. Anson's critique of you on this matter and he gives the show where you clearly state that the HS isn't a person.
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka exactly.
Rob Sivulka: Exactly what? Is the HS a person or not and just an It... as personal as that may be to you?
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka i didnt say the hs is a person. I said the hs is personal to God, like yiur arm is personal to you. But, im not going to explain anything to you, brother. Worship how you will. But your views are incomplete and are therefore fallible. As fall8ble as mine.
bye rob. And God bless you.
Rob Sivulka: OK, so you do buy the fallible JW view that the HS is not a person. That tells me that you fallibly have a false HS and not the Spirit of God. We're all fallible. That doesn't entail that all of us don't have anything right. If it does, then of course this whole conversation is a complete waste of time. Anything you say is a complete waste of time. If none of us have truth, then of course we've got more important things we can be doing. But then again, perhaps you're just wrong and we can know some things. One of those is that you don't know God and need to repent before it's too late.
Have you been telling us the truth?
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka there is no us, rob. And i do my utmost to always tell the truth as I see it.
Harry Kahmar: Good point Rob !
Cheryl Dyer: Or Dave's could be false. Right?
I believe the Trinity is an absolute lie.
Rob Sivulka: Cheryl Dyer then you're just another unbeliever who needs to repent and trust the Triune God of the Bible before it's too late.
Shawn McCraney I'm glad to hear that you're at least trying to give us the truth as you see it. However, I don't know what work labeling everyone's views fallible and incomplete is doing for you. That's a given. So what? You still have a false god that is not the Triune God of the Bible and you need to repent for promoting your false god before it's too late.
Cheryl Dyer: Rob Sivulka , I think I'll let GOD, the Creator make that decision. I'm a Believer but I only believe scripture. The Tinity doctrine is not in there.
Brandon Michael Wilson: Cheryl Dyer yes it is. It’s real simple:
The doctrine of the Trinity is built on three foundations:
1. Monotheism-there is only ONE God, Yahweh
2. There are three divine persons- the scriptures demonstrate that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other.
3. Co-eternal/Co-equal- the scriptures demonstrate that each person shares 100% in the being of the eternal Yahweh.
We are talking about three who's and one what.
Rob Sivulka: Cheryl Dyer Sure, God's the ultimate judge, but the Bible is clear that we are to test the spirits to see which are of God (1 Jn. 4:1). You reject the God of the Bible, then call yourself whatever you want, you don't believe the only true God. The Bible's clear: there's only 1 God, the creator of all (Isa. 43:10 & 44:24). That God is Father (1 Cor. 1:1), Creator of all (1 Cor. 8:6). That God is the Son who is the Creator of all (Jn. 1:1-3, 14 & 1 Cor. 8:6). That God is the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4), the Creator (Gen. 1:2), and since He's God, He's a Person with consciousness and will (Jesus refers to Him as a "He" in [Jn. 14:16ff.] and has descriptions just like any other person--e.g., can be grieved [Eph. 4:30] and lied to [Acts 5:3-4]). These persons aren't the same person, but different or distinct persons as the baptism of Jesus clearly indicates as well as Jn. 1:1-3 & 17:5. So obviously the 3 different Persons inseparably make up the only Creator there is from everlasting to everlasting.
Whether it makes sense to you or not is irrelevant. Whether you understand it fully or not is irrelevant. Whether you use the term "Trinity" or not to describe it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you believe what God has given you to believe, since "My sheep hear my voice."
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka and i could say the same to you rob, that you.need to repent before its too late...but the God I know aNd worship does not move me to say that...ever. becaise he knows we all.see through a glass darkly and the key is love not dogma.
i think there are elements in the dogma of the trinity that ate are refuse. I have that right. You have the right to support it. I let love fill in the gap - you let condemnation and threats. Theres the bottom line. Trinity or not, ill go with my approach .
Rob Sivulka: Shawn McCraney And you have given me no good reason to listen to you over the word of God. Simply because we all see through a glass darkly as Paul said doesn't get us off the hook of being faithful to the word of God. Of course we can all be wrong. Who told you that entails that we aren't supposed to snatch others from the fire as Jude says? You are making a lousy assumption that our fallibleness ought to keep us from telling others they need to change their minds like the prophets, Christ, the apostles and the rest of the disciples did.
Furthermore, if you really think that, then what in the world have you been doing all this time with all your blather? If it's not to change our minds before it's too late, then as Mormons ask me, "Don't you have something better to be doing with your time?" I mean who should really care, since again, we all are fallible and can't ever really have the truth on God? Do you have it or do you not have it? If you have it, then "love rejoices in the truth" (1 Cor. 13:6). However, you divorce love from truth.
True love warns just as the God of the Bible did over and over again through the prophets, Jesus, and His apostles. 1 Tim. 4:16 is clear that doctrine is to be watched closely. 2 Tim. 4:2 exhorts us to preach the word, correct and rebuke.
Jesus told us to teach everything He taught (Mat. 28:19). He said not worry about him that can kill the body and after that do no more. Rather we are to worry about Him that can throw both body and soul in hell (Mat. 10:28).
I'll preach and warn and correct as my Lord did. He warned of false Christs and prophets that come in the last days (Mat. 24:24). You clearly demonstrate that you don't know the God of the Bible and are unqualified to represent Him. You're a false teacher and need to repent of loving yourself and your own understanding over God and His word. And I say these these things to you and others precisely because I love you.
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka i teach (blather) what I see by the Spirit ( I hope) and you teach by the traditions of man. Again, you are welcome to go that route. We all see through a glass darkly. In the gap love must abide. So again, Rob, you are free to be dogmatically driven hy your certitudes and I will he driven by doing my best and loving ALL PEOPLE and their varied views along the way . . .including you and yours. So we can stop this, rob. The confrontation can end. In fact it must end.
Rob Sivulka: Shawn McCraney You make another lousy assumption that you are teaching by the Spirit and I am not, but by the traditions of man. This may be news to you, but the Spirit is the one who gives us logic or thinking God's thoughts after Him. However, you commit a basic fallacy called begging the question. That is, you assume what you need to prove. And if people don't accept your nonsense, then you simply say that they don't have the Spirit and aren't loving. Yeah, I've heard that before... from other cultists.
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka also, the way you put it, that i have given you no good reason to listen to ke over the word of God is rhetorical manipulation. I would never want anyone to listen to me over the word of God. Its stuff like this (and a hundred other examples) I do not trust or like you. I consider you well meaning in the faith and i will love you as Jesus loved all - but i do not trust you, your ways, or your unbridled zeal.
and in this last posting from you my above assessment is proven true. Were done rob. Should never have started. God speed.
Rob Sivulka: Yeah, you've said that before. You lied. You're also a hypocrite just like Jesus told the Pharisees in Mat. 23. You claim we can't make truth statements of God that would invalidate another's view, and then you freely go ahead making those truth statements that claim you have the Spirit and I don't. Finally, you also have not once in our conversation quoted from the word of God. It's all your blather. I'm captivated by the word of God, not you. Until you back your view up with scripture, I'll continue to fallibly trust what I'm captivated by. Love you enough to tell you the truth.
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka love is kind, rob. You are mean. Love is longsuffering, you are quick to kill. Love us gentle, you are harsh. Love is patient, is not proud, does not envy, doesnt behave badly, is not easily provoked, thinks NO evil; it believes ALL things, hopes all things, hopes and endures all things. Humbly, but in comparison between your words and ways toward me, and my words and ways toward you, I tend to think the pure love from the heart is manifest. Praise Him!
Rob Sivulka: So if nothing else works, go for character assassination. You make more lousy assumptions. Niceness isn't identical to kindness. Christ was always kind even when He was mean or put His adversaries to shame (Lk. 13:17).
I have patiently waited to have this conversation with you. You first invited me to have it with you 5 years ago. I stated my case. Then I have sat back and watched good Christian leaders attempt to correct you over and over again. I continue to patiently point out your errors in this conversation.
You also assume your own understanding of gentleness which doesn't fit the New Testament's understanding of the Greek term "priotes." That term is governed by selflessness and appropriateness to the given situation. If you want the model of that, please read Mat. 23.
You are full of yourself and not the Spirit of Christ. Ergo, you need to repent. BTW, you lied again!
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka ive nothing more to say to you.
Rob Sivulka: You're a liar.
Andy Cannon: Notice how Shawn bails when he knows he's on the losing side of an argument but can't admit he's wrong. This would be so easy if he would only accept the triune God who is taught in the Bible. Some people's stubbornness will lead them to hold on to their false god in spite of the Biblical evidence.
Shawn McCraney: Andy Cannon anyone and everyone can argue scripture, andy. I used to do it all the time. I bail because there is only one way to see things by dogmatists...why would I stay arguing against a wall? Again, I give YOU the liberty to believe as you wish, but there is no reciprocation in the minds of the zealous.
Rob Sivulka: Sounds pretty dogmatically zealous of you that you can't "contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) or "demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God" (2 Cor. 10:5). I get how sometimes you need to move on and not answer a fool according to his folly as Proverbs say. However, we've all been waiting for some scriptural reason why you'd deny that the HS is a person. Instead, you just throw your hands in the air and say, "im not going to explain anything to you, brother." Weak!
Shawn McCraney: Done entire show on why i see the hs as i do. I dont do one one ones - too much time. In fact. I have tried to articulate EVERYTHING I believe and see without equivocation. If you want one on one time Rob, here's an open invitation for YOU to come on the show. Bet i bet you wont do that will you?
Rob Sivulka: Yeah, I already did that with your joke of an “Inquisition.” Not going to trust a proven liar until you repent.
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka so, you'll "confront" me here, you will speak evil of me to dozens of people, you'll ask me questions, but you wont do it so a broader audience can assess and where I WILL use the scriptures you wsnt me to use? I will meet you face to face ANYWHERE you want, Rob, as a means to reason together then. How about that?
Rob Sivulka: Anywhere is here. Give us at least one reason why we'd believe you over what 2,000 years of Christianity has understood the Bible to teach on the HS being a person. You continue to show that you're a liar by continuing this conversation. You further lie and devalue the Holy Spirit, and then you claim you have "it."
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka hahahahahahahahaha. Ive met a lot of chickens in my day but you take the cake! Again, we are done...cluck cluck cluck cluck.
Rob Sivulka: Rich! You can think of me as a chicken even though I did what only 2 others did in coming on your joke of an Inquisition. Ha! I'm a chicken and you're a pig. Jesus was clear not to throw your pearls before swine. Yep, this is what happens when you do. If you won't give reasons here, then this conversation is pointless.
Shawn McCraney: Rob Sivulka cluck....cluck.... fearful, cowardly....cluck... mr street screamer, mr accuser, mr bold behind the screen is a proven coward. im really sorry bradda, but this is just bad... all the way around. But my invitation stands. And until you stand alone with me face to face I will forever consider you a brother who does love the Lord, but us a coward... Out!
[Private message to Rob Sivulka]: Cluck...