Rob and David
New LDS Friend
David reached out to me through Facebook. He’s in a grad program at BYU and his assignment was to interview someone who has a completely different ideology than his own. He wasn’t to defend his view, but to just listen. David took me out to a nice local Mexican restaurant, and he interviewed me for a couple hours. I was able to share where I find Mormonism to be so divergent from Christianity, and why simply depending on our testimonies is quite dangerous. I was also able to pray for him and make clear how much I love LDS people. I’m very happy how this all worked out and thankful for this new friend that I continue to pray for.
Last month was a little different. Some Korean churches around the US came out for a week of missions, and they asked me to be a part of it. I met the pastors for lunch the day before everyone came in. However, we were meeting online every so often to work out the details for this trip. The mission team was only here for a few days during the week, so we moved our meeting from our usual second Saturday of the month to the last night of their mission–on a Thursday. It was one of our largest gatherings ever–probably around 75 to 80 people! Because of that, we met at the church they were working out of–Crossroads Church in Sandy. That English speaking church shares their building with a
Rob with Pastors for lunchKorean church, and its pastor and wife are a part of our monthly fellowships. We had Murray and Jewly Harris from our church come and share their stories. You may watch their presentation and see the pictures at the site URL linked above.
I was working in the front yard one night. I turned around and there were two LDS sister missionaries! One I talked with before. She's the one from Argentina, and again, she didn't say much. She had this "oh no; it's you again" look on her face when she recognized me. The new one was from Branson, MO. I had another good, standard 15 minute conversation.
So I asked them why think Mormonism is true when there's so much evidence against it. She paused and then said that evidence can't prove for or against. The only way to know was through prayer. I asked, "How did you arrive at that position?" She asked me if I prayed about it, and I said I had, but I could certainly be mistaken. Then I asked her if she could be mistaken or was she infallible. She affirmed that she could be making a mistake. I thanked her for her honesty, and went on to tell them about "a more sure word of prophecy" that St. Peter spoke of. That should be our guide when our hearts are deceitful above all else, who can know it as Jer. 17:9 says. I also quoted Proverbs which says there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
She said that all she knows about her faith brings joy and good fruit, which is how you know. I asked her if she believes in Satan. She did. I told her the Bible says that he can appear as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14), so don't you think he can give you a false joy that leads you away from God/Jesus. He's been deceiving people since Adam and Eve. You'd think he'd be pretty good at it by now. She said everything she has learned has been from Jesus. I told her that I question that.
Why? Because Smith taught that God was a man who had to follow another God before He could even become a God. And there was a God before Him, and so on, ad infinitum, so there was no first God. Smith devalued God by making Him simply an exalted man. I quoted Isa. 43:10, 44:6, 8, and 24, and then contrasted that with Abraham 4-5 where many Gods were helping each other out in laying out the heavens and the earth. I also mentioned the temple ceremony where Elohim sends out only two other Gods--Jehovah and Michael to organize the world. (Michael later becomes Adam, by the way.) The Holy Spirit isn't even mentioned as He is in Gen. 1:2. Smith also taught that we could become Gods just like God became a God, so that we can populate a world and have our spirit kids worship, not the God of this world, but us. This is obviously not the God of the Bible who knows of no other God. Sure, other gods are mentioned in scripture, but they are always false gods. However, there's only one true God.
Well, she said that they weren't here to convince anybody. I said, "Well, these things are simply food for thought, and you need to think about these things since Jesus warned of false prophets and false Christs that would come in the last days. And if Smith wasn't teaching a false Christ, then I don't know who is."
She said, "Well, we're going to go." I said, "Thanks for listening and thinking. But before you go, I really want to tell you about my website for you to look up some day after you get off your mission. It's the bumper sticker on back of my car [they were standing right next to it], and it's called JosephLied.com. Please check it out sometime. I love you guys, and I think you're being deceived and led to hell by the false prophet Joseph Smith." With that, they took off.
More LDS Missionaries
Met my buddy Heath Randall one night for dessert. We met at the 2005 Manti Mormon Miracle Pageant. He and his family are out for vacation from Sacramento, CA. Last time we were together was when we were there 4 years ago. He is also a believer who loves to share his faith with LDS. When we were done visiting, guess who showed up? A couple LDS sister missionaries. So of course we had to meet them and had a nice 10-minute conversation with them about faith, but of course they had to go.
It was similar to the previously mentioned conversation, but much shorter and not as engaging. I tried to warn them about false prophets and Christs since they claimed that we have the same faith in Christ. I said that would be like if I were to claim Heath is really Christ. Sure, he died for us and loves us, but obviously it’s a radically different Christ. We don’t believe Christ was the first one born of heavenly parents, and we deny that God is just an organizer rather than a literal Creator of everything outside Himself. One of the sister missionaries said, “Well, I’d never claim that you were wrong.” Usually at this point, I cite their own scripture that claims I’m wrong and part of the church of the devil. However, I wanted to see in the brief time I had if I could get her to actually take a stand on her beliefs, so I said, “Well, I’ll say that you’re wrong.” I wanted her to say basically that this statement is wrong, but she wouldn’t bite. So I left them by inviting them to check out my site sometime… JosephLied.com. Of course they said they weren’t interested, but perhaps someday they’ll remember and will go there.
Rob training a mission teamTraining a Mission Team
My dad and I were able to train a mission team from Glendora, CA on how to engage LDS. This was a small high school team. I found out about this opportunity the day before we spoke, so we ended up speaking to them at where they were staying–the mission house in Saratoga Springs.
We Need Your Partnership
If you’re looking for ways to store up for yourself treasures in heaven (Matt. 6:19-20), may I suggest investing in our ministry? We not only need your prayers, but we need your financial partnership as well. Keep in mind that your investment is not simply for us, but for the lives of others we reach with the gospel. The standard way to financially invest is by writing a tax-deductible check to Courageous Christians United (CCU). For more information on various ways to invest in this ministry, including online giving, please see our “Invest” page on our sites. If you’re not a partner and are blessed by these monthly updates, please join our team and let us know soon. We’d love to be your missionaries here in Utah. Many thanks to those of you who hold us up in prayer and/or in your financial giving!
Be strong and courageous (Joshua 1:6)!
President, Courageous Christians United
P.O. Box 1374
West Jordan, UT 84088
I am so thankful for your heart for the Mormons. You and your precious family are very special to me!
You inspire me!!
Nice conversation. I think when she told you they were not here to convince anybody, I would have had to ask, then why are you going door to door for?
[I replied:] she would have replied that they are simply out to serve people and tell them the joy they found in Mormonism and invite others to have that by asking God themselves to find out if it's true. Then we would have been back to what I was already getting at, viz., how do you know it's really God giving you truth? So regardless of what they're up to, I'm still in need of convincing and they obviously need to think of these things if they really are going to help others like me.
Not here to convince… just trying to find low hanging fruit. 😒😔
Praying for the Holy Spirit to open their hearts and minds so that they will know the true Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
Praise God for people like you
Great job! Very helpful.
I was a fifth generation Mormon and Christians took their time to talk to me and guide me in God’s word. You’re doing a great work. Thanks for your attitude may God bless.
We’re having a ‘dialogue’ with a visiting sister-in-law at the moment. She brought us a ‘gift’ of Rough Stone Rolling and was mildly indignant that we weren’t willing to read the book which (in her words) would ‘put the arguments of Joseph’s detractors to rest’. The good part is that it has kicked off a discussion now continuing via email. Previously we weren’t permitted to speak about our faith at all because of her view about faith discussions causing ‘conflict and contention’. But her gift gave us an opening to recommend that SHE also read ‘An Insiders View’ (for example) or maybe just the New Testament with intent. And could she consider that SHE might be deceived? She’s so sure it’s us. In any case, your post resonated strongly with the tone and subject of our discussions. Bless her, she’s 80 and so lost in a lifetime in the Mormon maze that she’s been difficult to reach. The metaphor of a ‘maze’ now also fits with the height of its hedges and the degree to which one can see anything ahead but tunnels and distant glimpses of sky. You’ve done the research that I guess we should really be doing ourselves but your current post resonates with our present discussion and will be especially helpful. Thank you.
[I replied:] Rough Stone Rolling has caused many LDS to give up their faith since Smith comes off looking pretty bad. So I'd read it and ask her how she can keep believing Smith was really a prophet rather than a conman.
[She replied:] Well, that makes sense! It does beg the question of why she thought the book WOULD lay his detractors arguments to rest. Not having read it, I simply assumed it was another Mormon (J.S) apologetic. Don’t know that I could bear to work my way through that tome, to be honest, but if it’s an expose rather than an apologetic, that would certainly be a good question!
[I replied:] the problem is, again, they just believe despite the evidence. God told them; that settles it... even for Bushman who wrote RSR.
Yep it's just insane. Rob Sivulka I just think it's interesting all the twisting they try to do. It's so far from what Jesus taught! God IS the only god. I'm sure he is displeased with humans thinking they are equals. That's some scary old testament stuff there. 😲
That sign [JosephLied.com] (or some version of it) changed my life!
The students were sharing your website all across BYU today!