Three Different Guys, One Similar Belief
Last month I was able to share with three different guys at different times, and each had one belief in common--personal and sincere eclecticism--and all were formerly LDS. They were like an unholy LDS Godhead… one God in purpose, but three separate persons and three separate Gods. One of these guys I talked with actually goes to my church! I met him at a church party for kids. I saw he was wearing a BYU hat. He was raised LDS and went on a mission, but came home early since he didn’t like how opinionated they were. I asked him why he no longer is Mormon, and he said that it really doesn’t matter what you believe about God. Everyone has their own beliefs and that’s all that matters. I told him that’s not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught that eternal life is based on knowing the one true God and Jesus who was sent (Jn. 17:3). This new friend told me that I was like the Mormon missionaries… opinionated. I said that everyone has opinions; it’s just that some are more vocal about sharing them than others are.
A couple days later, I met a guy who was wearing a cross. I asked him about it and he said he used to go to the LDS Church, but now just has his own belief. I gave him my card and invited him to our church.
The next day I met a guy who said he liked my JosephLied.com sticker on back of my car. He said he used to be LDS, so I asked him what made him think it was no longer true. He then began to tell me that he thinks it’s fine for them, but everyone has their own beliefs and that’s all that matters. So I also gave him my card and invited him to church.
Our modern culture has so separated religious belief from the arena of truth. Everything has become so privatized. If your faith is so private that you never claim it’s true and other views that go against it are false, then you simply don’t have the faith of Jesus. His faith is the type that will get you in trouble with society. These guys I talked with will never get in trouble with society. However, these guys may one day be in trouble with the Truth Himself.
Coming home from church one day, I got to talk to a couple LDS missionaries. My girls were in the backseat, so I thought this would be a great opportunity for them to learn how to interact with LDS off the street. I pulled over and rolled my window down and talked to them from the car. I asked them about themselves. One was from Portland and just got on his mission a couple months ago. One was from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and has been out for a little over a year. Found out the guy from TX is a convert from Southern Baptist just about 4-5 years ago. His folks converted to Mormonism prior to him.
I asked him why he converted, and he told me he read and prayed and some things just made sense. Pretty vague, so I asked him why he thought what he believed was true and what he believed as a Southern Baptist was false. He said he wouldn't claim that it was false, so I asked him if he had read the 1st vision account. He had, so I asked him why I would believe his Jesus who said that all other churches were wrong, all their creeds were an abomination, and all their professors were corrupt, and the context specifically referred to Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians. He never answered the question except to say that he prayed to ask if it was true and God told him it was. I told him that I also prayed about it and God told me that what I'm believing is true, but we both can't be right, since we believe contradictory things.
He said, "Well at least we still believe in the same Bible." I replied, "That's true, but I don't believe in your prophet who had to rework the Bible in his own translation." Then I gave them the example from Rom. 4:5 and Gen. 50 where Smith contradicted what every translation says there. I told them there is no evidence for what Smith did and there's every evidence against what he did.
I then told them that I was concerned about them, and that God has revealed to me that they are following a false prophet, false God, false Jesus, and false scriptures given by false prophets. The missionary gave me a card, and I gave them the Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith DVD. I told them that the DVD was put out by Southern Baptists back in 2007. I had to go, so I told them I run JosephLied.com and I hope they check it out some time. I asked if I could say a quick prayer for them, and they let me. I prayed for God's protection of them, and that they would read the Bible with the eyes of a child and cling to it rather than what their Church tells them or anyone else.
Last month, I shared at our monthly Feast and Testimony. I shared on “Past and Present Racism in the LDS Church.” You may see the pictures on our site.
I was also able to speak to a group of around 85 missionaries at Southeast Christian Church in Murray, UT. They were with a group called Impact 360 from Pine Mountain, GA. I spoke on “Three Biblical Criteria for Testing the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith.” Our board member and president of Maven, Brett Kunkle, led the team, which was out for several days.
I also helped edit a script on Mormonism for JUCE Television Network. You may watch the video soon at https://www.jucetv.com/.
Dinner with teamGoogle Ads
My marketing friend and supporter Chris Barlow wrote, “For being the first month and with no effort to improve it, I was impressed with the numbers and think there is huge potential here:
810 people saw the ads
103 visited the site (12% CTR (click through rate) which means 12 out of every 100 people who saw our ads clicked - that's a high rate!)
$915 of the monthly $10k grant spent
Share these stats with your supporters, remind them that Mormons are searching Google for answers, and we can help them get those answers and discover Jesus.
I could easily see this campaign increasing results by more than 10x - both because we could spend 10x more of the grant, and by optimizing it could mean we get 3,000 - 5,000 visitors to the site, and 100 - 200 new subscribers for the course (monthly).”
These ads need to be maintained and time is money. If you would like to contribute financially to this campaign on a monthly basis, I need to hear from you. Please let me know if you are committed to this.
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Hey Rob. This will be the only time I reply in this thread, so thanks for taking your time.
...I'm disappointed in both of you because a) Rob, you have a reputation as a theology and a scholar, but I've read your twitter and your website. You're just a bigot towards Latter-Day Saints
[I replied:] Now I'm a bigot against LDS? Seriously, what do you mean by "bigot"? Is it that you disagree with something? If that's the case, then are you against anything? Are you against something that we're doing? If so, then you're a hypocrite, since you're obviously against something we believe in. However, if you mean something else, then please let me know.
Do you mean hate? If so, then you have no good reason to say that and are just wrong. Just as I hate abortion, I love those who perform abortions and the babies that are aborted. Similarly, I hate Mormonism since it is evil, but I certainly love Mormons and I have devoted my life to warning them. Do you hate us? If not, and you can correct us, then why can't we correct others and not be bigots?
Finally, if you just dialogue with people you trust, then you really are truncating yourself from learning from others. That strikes me as a pretty closed-minded attitude, but I do find it typical of those who are being indoctrinated in the public schools these days.
"An inactive member LDS , with a big testimony of our church , tell me what do you have , nothing .... why because you don’t know the truth an stop the BS , my son is serving his mission right now and they are changing lives not like you non denomination churches who don’t even know what your doing and take the money form the people to buy a Mercedes Benz 🤣"
I'm a one God, Apostolic, tongue talking, holy Rollin, born again, Bible believing Christian that's been liberated by the power of Jesus name!!!
[I replied:] Modalists don't know the God of the Bible and are as lost as Mormons.
[Modalist:] trinity follows the catholic version of god. Born from a flesh view.
Name who the father, the son and Holy Ghost are.
Whats the name? and Mormons gather their views from flesh also.
They dont even line up with anything believed by the apostles.
They actually are like the trinity in they form their own version which suits their religion.
[I replied:] the Bible clearly teaches that the One True Creator's name is Yaweah, and that this God eternally and inseparably exists in an eternal relationship of different individuals. There are all sorts of biblical examples that may be offered like the baptism of Jesus or His prayers to someone else. You deny this because you have been influenced by a fleshy modalist heresy. You need to repent from following a false God or you will go away from Him for all eternity in hell.
[Modalist:] not true. The prayer of a HUMAN to his creator is the prayer we ALL pray.
Are we also within the Godhead? We have the Holy Ghost within us as well,
As we share in the inheritance with Jesus. We must also share his position in heaven.
you have not looked further than you nose looking down upon others.
You can not explain a trinity. It doesnt exist.
How about spending time with an actual Jew and explaining the trinity to him.
He will call you blasphemous.
[I replied:] Jews have a false god just like you do. I just explained the Truine God and I backed the doctrine up from the Bible.
[Modalist:] you just dont understand. Jews just dont understand that the sacrifice they were looking for is Jesus.
But they never wavered from one God as stated in scripture.
When we apostolics teach the Jews they understand as we do not speak of more than one god.
You have a multiple god view. Simple math says there can not be 3 beings separated that make one.
There isnt even a devil, angel or Human that is three separate and distinct beings which make up one.
Yet scripture says we are created in His image.
By your theory we must be waiting on our other two persons to show up and make us one.
Yet scripture says men and their wife make up one flesh.
Never saying they make up one spirit.
Paul said doesnt nature teach you of God?
Show me what nature says of a trinity. Seperated things that live within one thing.
[I replied:] Trinitarians have never wavered at all about there being only one God as stated in scripture (e.g., Isa. 43:10 and Jn. 17:3). So you simply don't understand the Trinitarian view like all the cults. For example, Mormons think the Trinity is your modalism view. The problem is that neither LDS nor you understand the Trinitarian doctrine.
Further, I just told you they "inseparably exists in an eternal relationship of different individuals." So they aren't separate. They are inseparable not unlike Siamese triplets. The Trinitarian God of the Bible isn't physical, so don't push the analogy to that extent. Nonetheless, the Bible is clear that there's one God, and that the Father is God (1 Cor. 8:6), the Son is God (1 Cor. 8:6), and the Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Further, as I've already argued, the Bible is clear that the members of God exist simultaneously as we see all over the Bible (e.g., the baptism of Jesus and the prayers of Jesus).
So modalism is not true, since they hold the members don't exist distinct from their ways of appearing or titles. In other words, you don't have merely a plurality of names for only 1 individual or 1 individual appearing differently at the baptism of Jesus or the prayers of Jesus. There is clearly an eternal relationship of different or distinct individuals going on throughout eternity, but they aren't separate gods. They are different individuals who eternally make up the only true God. Therefore, you need to repent of your idolatry and believe the God of the Bible before it's too late.
[Modalist:] ur really mixed up and confused. U obviously do not know Oneness beliefs. Modalism does not properly define Oneness beliefs. And u have absolutely no scripture to support the Trinity doctrine. It is nowhere in the Bible.
[I replied:] you're blind and don't know the God of the Bible as I have well-documented.
[Modalist:] You havnt well documented anything. You have strung together a few pieces and called it belief. A belief is not just scripture. It is knowing how to understand what is being read. That comes by the Holy Ghost whether upon a soul in salvation or upon a mans heart to reveal all depths t him. Its time to obey Acts 2:38-39. Repent, be baptized in Jesus name. the name above all other names including the name of father, for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[I replied:] the Bible never teaches that God is only one person or individual or center of conciousness who *simply* has different titles, attributes, or ways of appearing. Until it is demonstrated from scripture that the Father is the Son and the Son is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Father, I'll continue to believe the Bible that these 3 are different, not separate, individuals who interact with each other in an eternal relationship. That's the God of the Bible that you need to save you from your sin.
[Modalist:] Then why does the scriptures explicitly state the NO one councils the Father. Solomon 9:13 For what man is he that can know the counsel of God? or who can think what the will of the Lord is
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
[I replied:] you beg the question that only the Father is God. Trinitarians don't buy that obviously.
[Modalist:] Understand you dont buy anyting. but you also dont follow orders. Have you obeyed acts 2:38? The only path to salvation?
[I replied:] Trinitarians believe these verses, but they don't demonstrate that this God isn't eternally 3 different inseparable persons. You simply beg the question.
[Modalist:] Actually they most certainly do demonstrate there is NOT a separation from the Father and the Son as the redeemer. God says HE is the saviour. Therefore you must know that the Father is Jesus.
[I replied:] again, you're not listening to what I have been telling you since you're too close-minded and blinded to the things of God. You're also committing a straw man fallacy. For the last time, Trinitarians don't believe the Father is separate from the other members of God. They are inseparable and distinct from each other just as much as angles are different but inseparable from each other in a triangle.
[Modalist:] That is very true. You are not listening to what anyone is saying. I dont listen to those who have no council for truth in the Lord. I have shut my spirit man down to those who have not the Spirit man. Jesus within them. So you didnt come here ot teach anyone. You came here so there is a record in heaven of your rejecting the truth. This record will beheld against your name in the time to come. So we are done speaking. I am sorry you didnt see any truth. Yet no man comes to God at anytime. Except Gd call you. You wont ever hear the truth. Nor find a place to repent of error. Sorry we have both wasted our times speaking. I dont feel I wasted mine. But Am truly sorry I couldnt reach you with any scripture.
Does the LDS Church teach that H. Father has sexual relations with Mary in order to produce Jesus?
[I replied:] If not sex with His spirit-daughter, then He still put His sperm in her via His son, her brother, the Holy Spirit. Is that any better?
[LDS:] You are a sick person.
[I replied:] I'm not sick. The LDS Church is.
[LDS:] No, you are. ”Put His sperm in...”? That is disgusting and you are the one who said it, not my church.
[I replied:] they don't use those terms, but the meaning has been clearly stated in other terms. You sick if you believe this sick cult.
[LDS:] They never use those terms, you do. And they do rule out those terms since Mary wasa virgin when she gave birth to Jesus.
[I replied:] terms are irrelevant. Meaning is relevant. Do you believe the Son is the literal Son of His parents? If so, then the Son must have a sperm and and egg from somewhere. That's basic biology.
[LDS:] "terms are irrelevant"
Saying "God put His sperm in..." is irrelevant? Only sex perverts say such a thing. You said it to make it seem like leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seem like sex pervs but the problem is, and it's a BIG problem, is tat they never said any such thing... you did, so the perversion rests with you and all others who use this type of language and you are NOT the first critic of the Church to do so. Once again, only a sex pervert like you would even get so explicit.
[I replied with a number of pictures from LDS leaders. Apostle Bruce McConkie said, "These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literlly. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. ...And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says" (Mormon Doctrine, 546-7 and 742). I also quoted BYU professor Stephen Robinson who said, ""He's got 46 chromosomes, 23 came from Mary, 23 came from God the Eternal Father" (interview in The Mormon Puzzle, DVD). I think asked, "Where did those chromosomes come from?"]
[Another LDS:] Do you believe Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God? Do you even believe he is the Son of God at all?
[I replied:] Here's the FAQ I wrote again: https://www.mormoninfo.org/faqs-31/doesnt-jesus-teach-that-we-can-become-gods-in-john-1034-3719.
[LDS:] Repeat after me: Mormons don't deny the virgin birth, Mormons don't deny the virgin birth, Mormons don't deny the virgin birth, Mormons don't deny the virgin birth.
There, don't you feel better?
[I replied:] where did Jesus get the seed and egg to form Him? Why should we believe you rather than what the leaders of your church have said? ...did the seed that made Jesus come from the Father's testicles?
[Another LDS:] The very term "BEGOTTEN" implies that God the Father was an ACTUAL Father to His ACTUAL begotten Son Jesus.
In the trinity creed Jesus is not an ACTUAL Son by normal word usage. And Jesus was not actually BEGOTTEN by the Father by normal word usage.
[I replied:] Christians understand the term "monogenes" to mean literally one of a kind or genus. In reference to God, since He's always been God (Ps. 90:2), then for one of the members of God to have (i.e., beget) a Son, that Son must be "eternally begotten."
[Another LDS:] How does a single genderless being beget a son? You do believe God is a genderless being, is that correct?
[I replied:] Here's an FAQ I wrote that may be helpful for you: https://www.mormoninfo.org/faqs-31/doesnt-jesus-teach-that-we-can-become-gods-in-john-1034-3719.
[Another LDS:] We believe we were created in the image of God. So if we all have genders then God has a gender because we are all in His image.
[I replied:] here's another FAQ I did on that subject... https://www.mormoninfo.org/faqs-31/doesnt-genesis-126-27-teach-that-god-has-a-body-of-flesh-and-bones-since-we-are-made-in-his-image-3726. Also, if the image of God means we look at ourselves and see we have genders, then God must have a gender as well, then are women made in the image of God? Or should the text say that we are made in the image of exalted parents who are male and female?