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Pleased to announce that after years of people bugging me about MormonInfo.org not being mobile friendly, it now is! Check out MormonInfo.org and see the difference!
MeettheExMormons.org
Please click on the above link to see the pictures and the video testimony of Mont Roosendall.
LDS missionaries
I had a Jonah-like experience. I was rushing all day to get stuff done. I walked into Walmart to deposit ministry checks and there were 2 LDS sister missionaries. I walked past them. I got done depositing my checks, and noticed that the deposit was less than what I counted at home. I guess I was in such a rush, I figured it was probably my mistake. I walked past the sister missionaries again. I figured it was probably best, since I didn’t want to come off as rude to them.
I went home, and checked my checks. I had 13, but the receipt said 12. So I rushed back to Walmart yelling at God and myself for being so careless with my money. It was just after 6, which is when the bank closed. Fortunately, behind the closed door, one of the workers asked me what I wanted. They checked and I was right. Praise the Lord!
So I was hurrying to get back home, and who do I see walking out the door? No, not the sister missionaries, but 4 bro missionaries. I said to God, “OK, Lord, you need to slow me down and please speak through me.” I went to these guys as they were putting their groceries in their car (yes, it’s their P-day–Preparation day). I shook their hands and met them. Found out where they were from–Fayetteville, NC, Grantsville, UT (just the other side of the valley), Maryland, and Chicago. The guy from Grantsville was to be going home in like next week. I asked if any were converts to the Church. They all grew up in the Church, but the one from Grantsville said he fell away and came back.
The guy from Grantsville did most of the talking. So I asked him why he came back. He basically said he knew the love God had for all of us and wouldn’t command so many of us to go to hell. He found that to be inconsistent with many other Christian denominations. So I said, “You believe in hell, right? You also believe that ⅓ of God’s spirit-children rebelled and are going to outer darkness, right? You believe they all had agency to follow God or reject Him, right?” He agreed. “So how is that really inconsistent with other Christian denominations?,” I asked. He said, “Well, the love of God is inconsistent with commanding those who have never heard the gospel to go to hell.” I said I agreed with that, but so do most Christians.
Then I asked, “Why think your LDS gospel is true?” That caused them all to look at me funny. Grantsville went into how the Book of Mormon is good fruit. Another said, "We feel it's true." I asked, "How do you know your feelings aren't deceiving you?" Another asked, “Well, how do you determine?” I started to explain how the Bible is given to us to test. If anything contradicts it, it can’t be of God, since we know the Bible is God’s word.” Grantsville began to explain how he believes Jesus came to earth, died for us, but the only real exception is that they believe he suffered for our sins in the garden.
Instead of going down the rabbit trail of where Jesus atoned for our sins, I asked, “What makes you sure that’s not a false Christ?” I explained that there’s something very fundamental about Christ. “Do you believe that Christ literally created all things outside Himself?,” I asked. He said he did. So I asked, “Do you believe He created our spirits?” “No,” he replied. I said, "Then you really don’t believe He created all things. The Bible is clear Jesus created all things." Grantsville started to explain, “Well, we believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate beings.” Another said, “Your Bible passages all have a certain interpretation to them.” I said, “Even if that’s the case, by definition, you have devalued Jesus, since He really isn’t God over all as Romans 9:5 says of Him. And if you devalue Him, then certainly you aren’t following the Jesus of the Bible.”
Maryland asked, “Are you Rob? Do you have that website Joseph Smith Lied?” I said, “It’s JosephLied.com.” He said, “We’ve heard about you. And we really need to get going.” I could tell things were wrapping up, so I told them, “Look, I’m not here because I want to ruin your day; I’m here because I don’t want you to get ripped off by Joseph Smith and believe his god. I want you to believe an infinitely more powerful God. One who really created all things. My in-laws are LDS, and I love them. I’m concerned about them. And I love you guys too.” With that we said goodbye and I got back home just in time to eat dinner with my family.
Summit mission team
Missionary training
I was able to speak to a mission team last month on why Joseph Smith is a false prophet. The team was from Summit Ministries in Colorado Springs, CO, but the members were from all over. There were around 40 total.
Another salesman
Another month, another window salesman. Salesmen are easy to talk to since they obviously want to make a sale. This guy is named Alan, and he said he liked our “He is risen” cross in our yard. Then after Alan’s presentation, he asked about the cross I was wearing and where I got it. I told him Serbia, and he said, “That’s a pretty Christian nation.” I said, “Yeah, but basically they are Christmas, Easter, marriage, and funeral Christians. They’re wrapped up in their traditions, but most of them don’t know God or desire any kind of relationship with Him.” So I asked him where Alan goes to church, and he said LDS, but he said he’s got friends from different denominations, and one in particular who is some sort of pastor in another state who is the most Christlike friend he has. I asked Alan if they ever discuss their differences, he said to a certain extent. He said to a fault, LDS focus more on works and said his friend emphasizes grace too much; there needs to be a balance. I asked if this friend doesn’t work, and Alan said, “No, he really lives like Christ.”
I then asked if they ever talk about the differences on the nature of God. Alan said, “Well, we both believe the Trinity and believe they are all separate.” I said, “Well the Trinity is redefined in LDS understanding. They think of it as all separate men each of whom have to become God. Whereas in Christianity, they all think that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always been God who created literally everything, even matter itself. See, our God never had another God to bow down to and serve in order to become God. You believe the Father had another God before Him since He was a man like us, right?” Alan agreed and then asked, “So is that why you believe we have a different Christ?” I said, “Yes, Jesus Himself warned of false Christs in Matthew 24:24 and I think the LDS Church teaches one. They teach that Christ is their elder brother in a pre-earth life, who didn’t create the planet He was born on as a spirit child, Lucifer, the spirit grandfather’s planet, or even matter itself.” I told Alan that Colossians 1 says that the Son created everything in heaven and on earth. I said, “I don’t believe in a pre-earth life, but even if I did, the Bible’s clear that if we were made in heaven, then we were made there by the Son. So He can’t be our elder brother. He made our spirits and everything else outside His being. That’s the valuation that Christians give Jesus as being God over all blessed forever as Romans 9:5 says. But Mormons have devalued Jesus.”
I then began to tell him about how I moved up to Utah and–eventually–fell in love with Mormons. He told me that God has done some special healings or miracles in his life just recently. I told him, “Well, I know God loves you, and he desires that you know Him. He is keeping you alive for that very purpose. Yet too many people won’t listen to Him. They’re more in love with what their church says, or what family and friends say.” He started to choke up, almost cry. I also gave him my site JosephLied.com and explained the home page chart of differences to him. He actually thanked me for not yelling at him, and then he asked for a hug, which of course I gave him. So pray for Alan.
Later that day, I saw him continuing to work the neighborhood. He came back over and we just talked gardening, so I gave him a couple raspberry starts.
We need your partnership
If you’re looking for ways to store up for yourself treasures in heaven (Matt. 6:19-20), may I suggest investing in our ministry? We not only need your prayers, but we need your financial partnership as well. Keep in mind that your investment is not simply for us, but for the lives of others we reach with the gospel. The standard way to financially invest is by writing a tax-deductible check to Courageous Christians United (CCU). For more information on various ways to invest in this ministry, including online giving, please see our “Invest” page on our sites. If you’re not a partner and are blessed by these monthly updates, please join our team and let us know soon. We’d love to be your missionaries here in Utah. Many thanks to those of you who hold us up in prayer and/or in your financial giving!
Be strong and courageous (Joshua 1:6)!
Rob Sivulka
President, Courageous Christians United
P.O. Box 1374
West Jordan, UT 84088
(801) 792-6373
MormonInfo.org
MeetTheExMormons.org
JWinfo.org
MuhammadLied.Info
AbortionIsMurder.Info
Mailbag
[Last month I posted a statement on Facebook by Chuck Colson on why he found the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus to be really solid. Here’s a response from a friend…] If you knew it's a fact, faith wouldn't be required. There's no certainty in religion. But they know we want certainty.
Selling and invisible product using guilt and fear for money is something we should all consider if we're being sold something we have to die for to know and receive.
[I replied:] you certain about that? My faith is founded on fact just like I have faith based on the fact that the earth is a globe that circles around the sun. Is it logically possible these facts are wrong? Of course, and people deny all sorts of facts.
That's pretty presumptuous of you to attribute motives to our faith.
think you'll enjoy this... https://michaeljkruger.com/one-of-the-most-overlooked-arguments-for-the-resurrection-2/
also not quite sure what you mean by the money comment. You think the early disciples who were killed, jailed, stoned, etc. got rich off their claim that Jesus was God the Messiah?
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I have faith not based on any proof. But it is not blind faith. How is that? I believe there is God simply because there must be a God. If there is no God, then there is no point. If all I have is whatever time I have already had plus whatever I will have in the future, and no God exists, Then morality, goodness, and treating my fellow man well is useless. It is a waste of my most valuable resource. ( Time.) If there is no God, then I should be selfish. I chose the God of Christianity because he is the only God who does not qualify or justify their existence. Only that kind of authority can speak to a true or real God. I think this is why God gave his name to Moses as I AM. Nothing else is needed. There are only 2 facets to my religion. 1. EVERYONE gets a fair chance. 2. God never told me what that looks like other than acknowledging that God is God. I am not a good person by any standard of any religion. That is why God must exist for me. Because He is the only hope I have of any kind of redemption or salvation. Otherwise I am lost. Lost to time which offers no forgiveness or salvation. If I am just a cog in the "accidental" machine of time and life,then I dont want it.
[I replied:] of course where else can we go for the words of life as Peter told Jesus in Jn. 6. And if Jesus isn't risen, there is no hope. Just because God exist is no assurance that we are right with Him, especially given all the times we offend Him in doing our own thing. People may and do place bets, but there are safer bets based on what we know to be true. The proof is quite good for the resurrection of Jesus, and this is exactly why Paul said in Acts 17 that God will in fact judge one day. Here is a great recent blog on a simple proof of Jesus raising from the dead… https://michaeljkruger.com/one-of-the-most-overlooked-arguments-for-the-resurrection-2/
[He replied:] Jesus is a given to me. I know I talk about the father more but God is God. All of him. Like he said there is no way to the father except through me. But if I wasnt scared, then I would be really scared.
[I replied:] thankful Jesus is a given for you. We pray He may become that to millions more!
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When you believe the Bible records are historical, but all of the records we have were written by third parties 40+ years after the “resurrection”. Does that make the content of the texts historically reliable? No! Add to that also that there’s evidence of very significant and at times intentional changes made in the translation process. 🤔
Also you have other cultures like in India claiming Jesus was there and lived there until he died 🤔🤷🏻♀️.
History matters, religious narratives have an agenda, which is to make money out of controlling people. 🤷🏻♀️
[I replied:] they were written well within 30 years. Why? Acts was written by Luke and his gospel account was written prior to it (Acts 1:1). There's no mention of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD that the gospel accounts have Jesus prophesying about, and we would expect that if it had already happened. Further, Paul's death in Acts is never told and we would expect that too if it had already happened. All scholars claim he died in the early to mid 60s. No scholar holds that Luke was the first gospel, so that pushes them back even further.
The early manuscripts and well as the testimonies themselves are rather consistent. Further, the inference to the best explanation of why the early followers came to believe Jesus really was Messiah after he died is the fact of the resurrection. https://michaeljkruger.com/one-of-the-most-overlooked-arguments-for-the-resurrection-2/ He is risen, He is risen indeed as the Church has been proclaiming for 2000 years now.
[She replied:] https://youtu.be/IuM_RKyyMrA?si=YcX2PY7RsUyAzW69
The writings on the gospels aren’t historical facts, this video explains a little bit about it.
[I replied:] and your patron saint Ehrman has been taken to task many times, even debated by many well respected New Testament scholars like Dan Wallace. You didn't even know that the New Testament Gospels were written less than 30 years from the time of Jesus' death and resurrection. So I don't buy the modern revisionism to get away from what is entailed by the historical fact of Jesus being risen from the dead. He is risen, He is risen indeed just as He said He would (Jn. 2:19-21). He rose because He's God just as He taught (Jn. 5:18-23 & 8:58 & 10:30-39). That was the consistent testimony of the early disciples who put their lives on the line for what He taught. I'd rather believe them than moderns who want to be their own god.
[She replied:] Hey you’re free to study and make your own conclusions. I used to be an avid believer myself.
If you want to believe the Bible is without mistake and reliable I can’t stop you.
The perspective one has on the world and life is the persons responsibility. So if you believe in the Bible with that much courage I can’t change that, I speak not to be against people in their faith, but I speak because I have seen in my life the very negative repercussions that devoted religious people have in the world. And that view was preached against by no one other than Jesus, he wanted us to stop looking for an authority to salvation and to look within, stop being victims and becoming the masters of our life.
But religion keeps people in fear, because if there’s no savior and no salvation people fear death. Fear does not come from god, but from the man made religions. I would just sincerely ask you to consider to be honest with yourself and take time to acknowledge your feelings and become aware if you come from a place of fear masked as faith.
And yes I believe Jesus lives but not that he was god and I don’t think he came to save us. He came to remind us that we are no separate from God, and that we are divine. 🥰
[I replied:] it's quite obvious to me that you don't know Jesus. You have a false Jesus you have made in your own image. I pray you really know Jesus, and pick up your cross daily to live for Him. That's where life is at. He loves you. He's pulling for you, but you'll never have life by thinking you're your own god. That's a lie a from Satan spoken from the beginning and it is opposite the way of the cross.
Jesus taught proper fear. He taught us to fear God who is love and true love warns. There is a proper fear of not burning your hand on the stove. Jesus said, "Don't fear him that can kill your body but can't kill your soul. Instead, fear him who can throw both your body and soul in hell" (Matt. 10:28).
Now you can keep telling yourself He never said that, but just what if you're wrong, and He really did say that? I think the evidence is clear what He taught. One doesn't need to hold to the doctrine of inerrancy to hold to the basic reliability of the Gospels anymore than we need inerrancy of different witnesses to some crime before can come to a reliable conclusion of what happened. No one questions what Socrates taught and did on the basis of one testimony--Plato. Yet when it comes to the multiple attestations of the gospel writers who put their lives on the line for what they were convinced was said and done now all of a sudden we find it too incredible since we are biased against the supernal acting in our world. Again, I think an inference to the best explanation points to Jesus saying and doing what was claimed in the NT.
[She replied:] historians do question (unless they’re apologetic religious people) the texts of other sources not only the Bible in a scientific manner. And the problem with the religions is that the metaphysical beliefs of the faith do not hold up to scrutiny after investigation. Because the Bible as we have it has had a lot of things added and removed from it, to have the narrative we know today of Jesus.
If god is all knowing and without mistake tell me why would he contradict himself about fear when his faithful disciple Paul says on 2 Timothy 1:7 that God does not give us fear and then Jesus teaches the opposite according to the writings in Matthew 10:28 by the way the gospel of Matthew wasn’t written by the apostle himself according to historians.
If you believe you can take all the teachings of the Bible as truthful are you aware that the Bible supports slavery, god commands the killing of innocent women and children (infants included), misogyny where women are not to have any place of authority (where other texts removed from the cannon explain that Jesus favored Mary Magdalen over all of his disciples) just to mention a few. Many of the problems we face today are because of avid religious fanatics who want to fulfill the prophecies of their beloved book. When for example the context of the book of revelation is not for our day, it was for the time of Nero.
The fear you mention has been the tool used by politicians and people of power like the Roman Empire, the Roman Empire created Christianity as we know it today, with a blood sacrifice for salvation based on their pagan traditions. That was not what Jesus taught or what he came to do. He was teaching against it.
He was telling us to stop looking out for salvation and find our divinity within.
And of course you will say these are teachings of “Satan” which is an ideology later on added to to promote fear, and it was purposely manipulated to keep people afraid and subjected to the authority of the church, instead of doing what Jesus taught to reclaim our own individual authority and find our divinity within.
If he truly was god why would he then say that those who understand his words and do his works would do even greater things than the ones he did? If we are just humans and separate from god?
I am not against the super natural, I am against the totalitarian teachings that have been imposed over us for millennia to keep people obedient and afraid.
I happen to agree with mark twain when he said: if Jesus were alive today there is one thing he wouldn’t be, a Christian.
I highly recommend you to study the history of your religion. The immortality key book is a good one to start with.
The history we have been fed is wrong and has been manipulated. The Bible doesn’t come from god but was created by the Roman Empire.
and I would add for you to analyze what you wrote: starting by saying is obvious I know Jesus, I used to know the Jesus you know, and I was an extremely devoted religious person, but now as following an image handed to me by men.
Then you add saying that I follow the teachings of Satan.
See how those 2 points are constructs given to you to automatically dismiss and discard anything I have to say about the subject because it does not align to you perspective? That is operating from fear, that is mental manipulation to avoid any information that could make you question your beliefs and it is designed precisely that way, to keep you mentally “enslaved” to the ideologies.
That is why Jesus taught us to become like little children, how do children see the world? With an open mind and curiosity? They’re not afraid to ask questions and explore. And they are honest in the things they understand. Sadly we soon remove that from humanity in our culture, school system, religion and other ways we handle information.
I’d love for you to be honest with yourself and question if you truly believe these things are of your own deep honest study and conclusions? Or does it come from been given the information you know repeatedly and avidly from a pulpit or by other peoples teachings? People who were taught as you to believe in these things and not question them.
[I replied:] You are too easily distracted from the main point, which is namely that Jesus rose from the dead and we know what He taught. These other issues are easily dealt with in various commentaries or other works. You are just looking for a lame excuse not to submit to Jesus since you want to be your own god. To take just one of your examples… I already qualified the fear spoken by Jesus. That’s a proper fear and I gave the example of not wanting to burn your hand on the stove. For you to wrench Paul out of context and suppose he must have been trying to rule out all fear whatsoever demonstrates what Peter wrote about Paul in 2 Pet. 3:16: “He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” Paul obviously qualified the fear he was speaking about when he went on to give its opposite in that very verse: powerful, loving, and self-disciplined. His point is that the Spirit of God in those who follow Jesus is not meant to make us timid people, but instead is working in His Church throughout the ages to courageously do even more works than Christ Himself. That should be obvious, but you want to create a trumped-up contradiction here. It’s a cheap shot.
Now I could go on to answer the rest of your points, but I don’t think you really care. You’ll just come up with another lame excuse. You’ll continue to presume I haven’t studied the history of my religion and want to stick my head in the sand despite the fact that I am working on my doctorate in theology now, have 3 master’s degrees in religion, philosophy, theology, and ethics, an undergrad degree in biblical studies, have studied at some great schools--religious as well as secular--and have taught courses in religion, philosophy, and apologetics on the undergrad and grad level.
My hope is in Jesus because of not only what He’s done in my life, but also what I know about Him rising from the dead, claiming to be God, and fulfilling prophecy. I know that He rose from the dead on an inference to the best explanation of the facts of history. Given that, I trust Him when I come across things that don’t make sense to me. Most of the time He brings understanding and works those problems out for me. Sometimes He doesn’t. But like any good scientist, I don’t overthrow a well-established theory when presented with some anomalies. My faith isn't in my own limited understanding; my faith is in King Jesus.
I wish the best for you, but I think you’re content in your agnosticism and don’t want to bow your knee to King Jesus.
[She replied:] well looks like you’ve got it all figured out, good for you. As long as it serves you, you’re happy and become the best version of yourself I applaud you in your beliefs.
I am sure all those titles, schooling and opportunities to teach elevate you to a place of superiority and unquestionable truths.
I am simply a woman, a mother who once was a devotedly religious and spend most of her time reading scriptures and following the teachings of religious leaders and scholars as yourself. I loved the god of my religion and followed without question. I loved Jesus and praised him every day of my life, yet my soul was empty and my heart afraid as you said, focused on fearing god in my discipline and devotion to be his disciple. I personally believe now that I think of it, that it was those teachings and religion what stood in the way between me and my creator.
Later in my life experiences lead me to question in honesty, without the lens of the constant bias I always chose to see the world with. I want to think I started to read scriptures and question theology with a curious mind more closely to the way I did in childhood.
I still believe in Jesus but differently, no, I am no scholar and don’t claim to hold the whole truth, but I am not afraid in what I have found as my truth because for the first time in my life I experience joy, healing, wholeness, peace and closeness to God who I don’t dare to limit with a form or in any way, because that in itself makes god to stop being god, by my own understanding and limitations. And I remain with an open mind because I am aware I do not hold all the truth or understanding but simply a speckle or glimpse of gods beauty and magnificence.
As a scholar you must be familiar with the nag mahhadi library, and the more gnostic teachings that were part of the ancient human traditions that were removed during the Roman creation of Christianity.
But again how could a woman without important titles know anything? It is just cheap elaboration on my part. I am no authority or recognized figure, but if something I hold as truth and I am not afraid and devote myself to is to live a life based on love, not fear, and I believe it is the core of Jesus teachings. Including the love for the truth, he wasn’t interested in respect or recognition, to hold titles or become an authoritarian figure, but he went within to learn what the wise men and the scholarly educated of his time could not understand. And he taught them wonders that they couldn’t even conceive, and that made them afraid and uncomfortable, they could not handle the vulnerability of being taught by a child, and once he got some sort of power and following these scholars, religious leaders and politicians went out for him to kill him.
Maybe what fears you is that another person specially the lowest of all could be right, and could know from their inner wisdom and divinity what years of study and big amounts of money invested on your part couldn’t do. It is amazing you’ve invested so much but it would be such a blow having a “nobody”know anything. So yeah of course you won’t listen and of course anything I say is a cheap throw at you to remain “agnostic”. Or perhaps it is your arrogance and pride what keeps you from really giving yourself the opportunity to instead of looking at outer sources to find god, that this is a call from God to you to instead look within, because you might find that true connection, and might just might deny everything you have so devoted yourself so much to.
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